"LeBaron" brake upgrade

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"LeBaron" brake upgrade

Postby Trinten » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:23 pm

The LeBaron brake upgrade is, in my opinion, a great upgrade that's a step above the "Grand Am" upgrade and the more elaborate ones, like the Corvette upgrades. For most people, if you had the GT wheels, this brake upgrade would (just) fit.

La Fiera had discovered that Wilwood makes a caliper that is compatible with this swap, plus it keeps the E-Brake, plus the bleeder valves are on top (one of the other combinations for this swap was to use Cadillac rear calipers, which let you keep the e-brake, but bleeders wound up upside down - take that with a grain of salt, I'm recalling that from the massive investigative thread into this swap from PFF).

Here is the info that La Fiera had posted, and some other good info.
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT, 355 cubic inch small block Chevy putting down 371 HP and 381 ft/lbs torque at the wheels, with more to come!
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Re: "LeBaron" brake upgrade

Postby La fiera » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:25 pm

Posted by La Fiera on 9/7/11
At Moloon Autotecnica we strive to always improve our track car and pass on what we learn to the Fiero enthusiast. Here is a tip to improve your brake system or if you already have the Camaro/Seville with Lebaron rotors brake upgrade, here's how to make it better.
Instead of using calipers from the local auto part store use the Wilwood GM Metric unit. It was originally developed for oval racing were the stock GM caliper had to be used, according by the rule book.

Here's what Wilwood has to say about this caliper:

"Wilwood iron GM Metric calipers combine new part quality with modern machining precision. There are two piston size options to assist builders with properly building static bias into a car. Previously, builders using the metric calipers generally had to mount the same size calipers on all four wheels. This drastically limited the tuning options and often created front to rear bias ratios that were not conducive to good handling and stability under hard braking. Some builders, and other brake suppliers, chose to offer re-machined OE calipers to provide a bias tuning option. Unfortunately, re-machining a used casting that was never designed for the larger bore size, can create real compromises in strength, reliability, and performance.

To address these needs, Wilwood has tooled two separate castings that are fitted with either 2.75" or 2.00" stainless steel pistons and high temperature bore seals. Each casting is designed specific for its intended bore size. The calipers are strong and precise, without unnecessary added weight from oversized castings. The stainless steel pistons resist corrosion while helping to slow the heat transfer from the pads. The high temperature seals provide long service life when used in hard braking applications and maintain their resilience to provide positive piston retraction on release. In addition to the optional piston sizes, two models are available with slide pin vibration dampers installed to help reduce rattle and other noise".

[/color]
Another advantage that I found is that due to its interchangeable bleeder/hose location, there is only one part number and you can mount it in every corner. With the original caliper, you'd have to get the right and left and when installed in the rear, to properly bleed the system you have to take the caliper off and invert it; not with the Wilwood. And is also lighter

We have these calipers in our Fiero in the front and since it is being developed as a Time Trial racer which will run on slicks, we opted for the 2.75" bore. We teamed them with a set of racing brake pads by Hawk, specifically the DTC-30 compound which is designed for dirt oval race cars that demand braking power and consistency without fading. In the Hydraulic department we have the Wilwood EXP 600 racing brake fluid and the Blazer master cylinder. That will be the icing on the cake for a bullet proof, consistent and economic set up that will out perform other brake set ups that cost much more.
We've tested the above set up in two different tracks with no fading or brake issues whatsoever. The only inconvenient is that it has too much brake power for the street tires we are running on the car now, the brake pedal has to be work with finesse to prevent lock up of the front wheels. But that will balance out with the grip power of the racing slick tire that this system was designed for. The rear still has the stock set up with ceramic pads for two reasons:

1)Front & rear bias is fine tuned via a manual proportioning valve that way we can tailor the brake set up on different tracks and conditions.
2)Bigger rotor in the rear means that they will take away hp going to the ground to move that mass.

For the street Fiero front brakes we recommend the 2.00" bore and quality brake pads with stock diameter wheel. For front tire diameter increase, the 2.75" bore will be a better option. For the rear, to keep the bias correct use the front 2.00" and stock in the rear for stock diameter wheels and 2.75" front and 2.00" rear with oversized wheels.

Image
Image
Wilwood vs Stock GM
The Wilwood (at left) weighted 4.4lbs while the Stock GM (at right weighted 6.6lbs

Image
Caliper and brake pads combo.

And next, we will be upgrading to this:

Image
For even more weight saving , performance and looks this Wilwood D-52 style caliper will bolt on in place of the already existing GM Metric caliper bracket. And for the track, the same DTC-30 Circle Track compound pads that we are using is also available for the D-52 caliper!

Note: DO NOT USE RACING PADS FOR THE STREETS. They are noisy, dusty and WILL NOT STOP THE CAR WHEN COLD!!! They requiere a special bedding procedure and constant heat to work at optimum performance.

Hope this help some of you that have the Camaro/Seville set up. And thank you for stopping by!

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Re: "LeBaron" brake upgrade

Postby Trinten » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:26 pm

Posted by Trinten on 9/7/11

Rei,

Just because I'm paranoid and like to make absolutely sure I understand things - these calipers would be used for the swap that requires the 10 degree brackets, like these: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/046895.html

I know we had discussed it briefly when I was at your shop, and I'm just making sure since I already have those brackets.

Last question, do you know if those Wilwoods will fit behind the stock GT wheels? I remember in the big thread on the upgrade the Wilwoods had come up a few times, but there were different concerns, one of them was clearance.

I just looked up the Wilwoods, it seems they have different versions. One of the odd things I noticed was different rotor widths.

http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/Caliper ... l%20Piston (wilwoods site was giving me issues, finally got the page to load)

Which of these (if any) is the correct one and maintains the emergency brake?

Thank you for posting part numbers!
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT, 355 cubic inch small block Chevy putting down 371 HP and 381 ft/lbs torque at the wheels, with more to come!
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Re: "LeBaron" brake upgrade

Postby La fiera » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:27 pm

Posted by La Fiera on 9/7/11

Yes, they fit the bracket you have because I have the same ones. As far as clearance I don't know on the stock GT wheel, but you know I have a 1/2" spacer in the front so I don't think I'll personally have an issue. I do have the stock GT wheels in my garage, when I get the calipers I'll try it to see if it clears.

This is the caliper part#for the front:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Wilwood/950/120-1 ... Id=1275719

This is for the rear:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Wilwood/950/120-1 ... Id=1275719

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Re: "LeBaron" brake upgrade

Postby Emc209i » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:28 pm

Posted by Emc209i/L67

Good stuff. If only a two piece rotor existed for the 11.25" upgrade. In terms of using a solid rotor, the 12.00" Vette upgrade with two piece rotors should be about on par in unsprung weight and rotational mass. Know of a two piece solution Rei?

(Moderators note: Rei said he would look into it, did not post an update about this question, though.)
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Re: "LeBaron" brake upgrade

Postby La fiera » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:30 pm

Moderators note: One of the big things with this swap is that it requires REAR LeBaron rotors. There is a different. Here is the post from La Fiera with some part numbers, posted on 9/9/11

Yes, there is a difference in front and rear rotors for the lebaron. Also the wheel size determines if it is vented or solid.
Rear Lebaron vented rotors (vented with 16" wheel)

Brembo $18.00 My supplier.

Wearever #YH141534 $17.00 Advance Autoparts
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Re: "LeBaron" brake upgrade

Postby Drew-py » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:30 pm

Posted by Drew-py on 10/10/11

Rei
Now that my suspension, exhaust and motor are done I need to be able to stop this thing, so I am looking for an all parts included brake conversion kit or a complete list of parts here, parts there that work together, all I can find is Chris at WCF $3,000 kit or you can use this or that, but not this and that together. I want use the Wilwood calipers and step to either a 11" or 12" vented disc, with at least dual piston front single rear with e-brake retention. I read your opening post about the Camaro/Seville with Lebaron rotors, is what I am looking for just that simple? I know that a two piece front is needed for just about any upgrade. I am not afraid to spend my money and more than happy to give it to a sponsor!!!! Thanks
87 GT 3800 II SC, 07 GXP, 91 GMC Syclone #2811
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Re: "LeBaron" brake upgrade

Postby La fiera » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:31 pm

[Posted by La Fiera on 10/18/11[/b]

Sorry for the delay drewpy!
I'll be more than happy to help you. The rotors I use are the Lebaron 11.25 vented, I could get them crossdrilled also. As far as the caliper if you look at the pictures they are Willwood. If you want the dual piston caliper (D52) I can set you up with a kit with those. I will not offer anything that hasn't been tested, so with that in mind the only thing I can offer is the kit with the Willwood GM metric style. When I upgrade to the D52 and once it passes my tests then I will offer it to the public.

Since every Fiero is tailored to its driver we need to know some variables like : Vehicle weight (approximate), tire size (front and rear if different), engine size and style of driving and what part of the country you are located. There will be a front kit or a complete kit for different budgets and purposes!
The kits will include:

Complete kit: R/S 1-4
Master Cylinder: Blazer
Calipers: Willwood D52 Red or Black anodized aluminum (4) (front and rear have different pistons sizes)
Rotors: 11.25 Lebaron vented solid or crossdrilled (4)
Pads: Street, auto x or track compounds (Auto X and Track will be more expensive) (2 sets, front and rear)
Proportioning valve: Adjustable front to rear brake bias for the ultimate tuning and driver style.
Brackets: CNC machined (2 front & 2 rear)
Hoses: Stainless Steel braided (4)
Brake fluid: ATE Super Blue Racing fluid 536F Dry/ 388 wet boiling point. (1 Liter can)

Complete kit: R/S 2-4
Master Cylinder: Blazer
Calipers: Willwood GM metric style (4) (front and rear have different pistons sizes)
Rotors: 11.25 Lebaron vented solid or crossdrilled (4)
Pads: Street, auto x or track compounds (Auto X and Track will be more expensive) (2 sets, front and rear)
Proportioning valve: Adjustable front to rear brake bias for the ultimate tuning and driver style.
Brackets: CNC machined (2 front & 2 rear)
Hoses: Stainless Steel braided (4)
Brake fluid: ATE Super Blue Racing fluid 536F Dry/ 388 wet boiling point. (1 Liter can)



Front kit: R/S 1-2
Master Cylinder: Blazer
Calipers: Willwood D52 Red or Black anodized aluminum (2)
Rotors: 11.25 Lebaron vented solid or crossdrilled (2)
Pads: Street, auto x or track compounds (Auto X and Track will be more expensive) (1 set)
Proportioning valve: Adjustable front to rear brake bias for the ultimate tuning and driver style.
Brackets: CNC machined (2 front)
Hoses: Stainless Steel braided (4)
Brake fluid: ATE Super Blue Racing fluid 536F Dry/ 388 wet boiling point. (1 Liter can)

Front kit: R/S 2-2
Master Cylinder: Blazer
Calipers: Willwood GM metric style (2)
Rotors: 11.25 Lebaron vented solid or crossdrilled (2)
Pads: Street, auto x or track compounds (Auto X and Track will be more expensive) (1 set)
Proportioning valve: Adjustable front to rear brake bias for the ultimate tuning and driver style.
Brackets: CNC machined (2 front)
Hoses: Stainless Steel braided (4)
Brake fluid: ATE Super Blue Racing fluid 536F Dry/ 388 wet boiling point. (1 Liter can)

I'm working on the price right now. How soon are you looking to upgrade?
Once again, thank you for visiting and if you have any question feel free to PM or call.

Rei Moloon
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Re: "LeBaron" brake upgrade

Postby Trinten » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:32 pm

Posted by Trinten on 5/17/12

Hey Rei,

A few quick questions -

Hoses - stock Fiero hoses do the trick?

Did you get your new calipers on, and did they clear the GT wheel?

Any luck on figuring out a 2-piece solution for the LeBaron rotors to make them lighter? (a call back to Paul/L67's earlier question).

With the EFI stuff close to being done, I'm planning/preparing for the brake ugprade. Also thought it might be of interest to you/others about this thread - http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/109048.html

He did a pretty good job at listing all parts needed, in case you needed any reference/part numbers for anything. I'm going to point him to this thread, so others will know there's another set of Calipers out there that will work - I know at one point people were saying the Wilwoods wouldn't work, but for the life of me, I don't remember why... maybe it was just wheel clearance, or an issue solved by the 10 degree brackets.

Also, again to reiterate, the Wilwoods have the bleed plugs all facing up, correct?
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT, 355 cubic inch small block Chevy putting down 371 HP and 381 ft/lbs torque at the wheels, with more to come!
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