Trinten's "MMTS" build

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Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:30 pm

I'm going to try to consolidate this a bit, as it was a rather long thread (about 9 pages) on the old boards... and a lot of it was "hurry up and wait" posts. So just the "key" posts will be put back here.

What I have:
1986 GT w/ LSD'd F23 5 speed!

Originally bought with the Archie v8 swap done housing a Vortec headed "Gen I" SBC putting out around 255 HP and 330 pounds of Torque at crank, mated up to the factory Muncie 4 speed. GM Gray interior, white exterior with a weird checker-fade-to-gray trim at the bottom.

What I'm planning:
Finish POR-15 coating of the frame (the back half is done)
355 Ferrari interior (with the glove box!) and the really nice environmental controls.
355 nose (both by Amida, he does awesome work!)
New carpet
Something cool with the doors (the autolocs won't work. Thank you to WhoDeanie for confirming that for me)
IMSA style quater panels with functioning scoops
Modified HSR intake with MAP EFI (originally wanted to use F.I.R.S.T., but some things change)
Nitrous Oxide system (with a full range of safety components, progressive controller, and NANO).
Mr. Mikes seat upholstery replacement things. I wanted to keep it cloth, and I think he offers that now, but leather isn't out of the question. Only looking into it now that both seats have a tear in them. Oh well. Usage will do that, right?
Nifty 17" forged wheels, the lighter the better.


What I've got:
the "C" brackets for a future brake upgrade
New steering wheel (on the fence about putting it in)
S-10 Master Brake cylinder -which turns out I might not need... misunderstood something I had read on the brake upgrade.


What's been completed:
The hood has "flipped" GTA vents glassed in, to help air get out from the squeeze behind the radiator. Hood was painted.
A scoop for the decklid to help get more/cooler air to the engine and clear the air filter
Twin 90mm Hella headlights and buckets, and Synthesis' stage 2 wiring harness
3 core aluminum radiator
Permacool fan
LED tail and "PONTIAC" lights, brake lights, side markers, courtesy lights, trunk light (from SuperBrightLEDS.com and TLG)
New SBC packing AFR heads, forged internals, 4 bolt main, putting down 371 HP and 381 Torque (At the wheels!) has been installed with...
Clutchnet 6 puck sprung hub and 2x pressure plate
ARP bolts everywhere! (including awesome pressure/lock washer ones for the headers, no need to re-torque!)
Spring tension bars in decklid removed, replaced with a Rodney Dickman lifter
F23 swap with Quaife LSD (with Dakota Digital Speedometer converter)
Coated headers/exhaust (Everything but the mufflers). 7/8 primary tubing, 2.5" exhaust the rest of the way
New heat insulation material put up on the firewall, along the trunk (engine compartment side) and on the under-trunk heatshield, just for completeness.
Poly suspension all around (thank you Paul for installing all the front stuff)
Adjustable coilovers, Sensa-Trak and 250# linear rate springs
750 CFM Edlebrock Carb
Very powerful 142-tooth start from PowerMaster
Ignition timing has been dialed in (as much as possible with a vacuum gauge)

What NEEDS to be done ASAP:
Get the A/C hoses fixed (high and low are crossed).
Get the A/C charged

Here's the photoalbum on all the stuff in/done to my car.
http://rides.webshots.com/album/5741716 ... ?start=120

And here's a link to my engine going through one of the warmup runs on the dyno -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbSJ8JPnfkE

LKN Speed in Mooresville is who built my engine. Scott is a fantastic guy to work with, extremely dedicated and very much an enthusiast and perfectionist. You aren't likely to find better.

Also big props to Greg (CowsPatoot) for fixing/redoing about everything electrically, including fixing my charging issue and setting it up to use the CS style alternator' and Paul, who did my F23 swap (With fantastic documentation), as well as a myriad of other odds and ends.

Joe at Vixen Cycle (now closed?) did the hood and decklid painting, exhaust work, and a lot of the work involved in the engine swap.

Jeff, formerly of Vixen Cycle, did the new headliner (with 'amateur' results - that's really bad coming from me), replaced some door parts, and had pulled my old V8 as well as applying the POR 15 coating on cradle and most of the rear of the car.
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT, 355 cubic inch small block Chevy putting down 371 HP and 381 ft/lbs torque at the wheels, with more to come!
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The breif summary

Postby Trinten » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:26 pm

So the new engine swap started in August of 2009. That was when I dropped the car off at Vixen cycle. Originally I was told that the whole project would only take about 2-3 months, it included putting the new engine in (once it was delivered), new headliner, some work on the doors, exhaust, POR-15 coating, and of course the engine installation.

What happened was comical. It was delay after delay, excuse after excuse, and I'm sure some of it was outright lies. I drove the 90+ minutes to the shop whenever I could to help out, sometimes I'd be out there from 6-12 hours. Some days it was just to do what little things on the side I could do (like some of the work on the hood and decklid). Other days I got to be more involved.

As things deteriorated between the two remaining owners of the shop, and their own/other projects (and school in one case), it only got worse.

It got to the point where whenever I was given a deadline, I stopped believing it, and whenever one of them blamed the other, I was playing mediator. The following is relevant updates compiled into a single post, with the original dates I posted it noted.

Ultimately, the car was back on the road and home on 11/14/2010 - over a YEAR later.

After the car returned though, it was not without it's problems. Charging being one of the big ones. CowsPatoot had my car on a few occassions, including building a whole new engine harness for it, and doing the CS conversion, putting on a really nice PowerMaster alternator (they have fantastic products and support, in my experience, it's why I went with them for my starter as well).
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT, 355 cubic inch small block Chevy putting down 371 HP and 381 ft/lbs torque at the wheels, with more to come!
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:26 pm

10/27/10

Okay, got texts from Joe, plus two pictures!

First up, my new fuel line fitting to the carb with the new fuel pressure gauge:

Image

Next, my finished decklid! (well, finished painting and such, still need to move the lock and electric release over to it next).

Image

He said Jeff has been out there recently, not sure if he was referring to when Jeff was out there that he emailed me about, or more recently than that. Going to drop him an email. Also called Joe to thank him for the pics and to ask him if I could get out there Friday night.
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:27 pm

11/22/10

Okay, got my two test LED bulbs from SuperbrightLEDS today. I bought one each of the following:
1157-R45-T
1157-R24-WV "WIDE" Polarized

The R45-T is much like the ones I got for my PONTIAC emblem (WLED-RHP9 "Pure Red"), only with more LEDs and the proper base.

The WV is sorta like a flashlight LED, with all of the bulbs pointing in the same direction. Since the inside of the housing isn't reflective, I thought they might be better. I was wrong.

In the following pic - the top is my original 2057 bulbs.

The bottom - the two "inside" bulbs are still the 2057. The one on the outside left is the WV, the outside right is the R45. You can see that the difference in brightness between the 2057 and R45 is subtle (in the R45 favor), but HUGE between the WV and 2057 (in the 2057 favor). This applied even running around my street like an idiot checking at different angles.

Plus, as Ogre warns in his write up, they are not TOO bright, as to make it tough to judge the distance between the back of my car and any following vehicle. So I guess I'm ordering three more of the R45s!!

Image
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT, 355 cubic inch small block Chevy putting down 371 HP and 381 ft/lbs torque at the wheels, with more to come!
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:27 pm

7/13/11

Guess what the UPS man dropped off for me today??

Image

Could it be?!

Image

It is! A Quaife LSD for the F23 transmission. Woot!

Now, the head-scratcher is that I had read there's supposed to be a warranty/registration card in the box, and there is not. I will need to check the shipping box, and if all else fails, contact Quaife first (to make sure I"m not mistaken about how to register if there's a need), and then the shop I bought it from if necessary.

Big thanks to Paul (Emc209i) for deciding to work on my stuff. He found the cause of my courtesy light issue (the switch in the driver side was busted), and is chasing down the short to my trunk popper. He's also handling some other stuff for me.

Another big thanks to Chug and Drewpy, they were really great about helping me out with stuff when I was out there at Chugfest, and Chug is/was trying to figure out how to get the speedo to work.

Also thank you to Jncomutt to helping clear some things up!

While Johnny never managed to bust his F23 (and I've read on some Vauxhall forums about guys there putting out 500+ HP/Torque and not busting them), I have read a few forums where some guys have managed to destruct them, but they were doing peak-power clutch dumps with sticky tires... and obviously had stronger axles than what's on the Fiero. While I never plan on doing clutch dumps, this fact has made me reconsider getting the super-upgraded DSS axles for now. I think I'd rather the axles stay the "weakest link".

Once I get the car back on the road, I'll be taking it to get it a dyno sheet on it, and then at least one more (after the EFI conversion and tune), possibly one in between - as Scott still wants to tinker with my carb and maybe replace it, he feels it's too small for the engine.

I'm excited! :D
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT, 355 cubic inch small block Chevy putting down 371 HP and 381 ft/lbs torque at the wheels, with more to come!
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:28 pm

8/1/11
So the firewall/insulation material is now in place! Hopefully this will help keep the car cooler, and the trunk. Under the trunk we also put material on the heat shield there and put it on there - no picture of that though.

This whole process was deceptively time consuming. I got to Paul's place around 10:45am, probably spent about an hour of driving around and getting parts/pieces, plus a two hour break for lunch, and left at 9pm. By the way, hole punches are awesome. We used a sharpee, white out, a pair of scissors, tried using a razor blade, and put it all together using mostly rivets and washers. I'm very happy with how it looked. So here are pics!

Image


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1986 Pontiac Fiero GT, 355 cubic inch small block Chevy putting down 371 HP and 381 ft/lbs torque at the wheels, with more to come!
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:28 pm

9/5/11
Well I got the car to Rei Moloon's shop today to work on getting the A/C charged.

He pointed out a lot of little things that needed to be fixed. A bolt had come off the exhaust header (which he replaced).

On my front sway bar, the front bolt on both sides was snapped off!! Paul, did you notice that when you did my poly in the front?? Rei said they'd probably need to be drilled out. So I need to see who can get that done. I didn't ask him if he'd be willing/able to do that if he had more time.

We also found a slight oil drip :( I'm going to get a oil filter relocator from a different manufacturer (that's where we think it's from again).

And discussed the horrible issues with my coolant pipes. We have a game plan for tackling that, but it'll have to wait a while.

So the reason I went there... the A/C. O-rings replaced, valves replaced, all leaks handled, system charged, and.... discovered that the shop that lengthened my A/C hoses flipped the high pressure and low pressure hose. Wonderful.

Dropped Greg an email to try to figure out how to fix the issue, since the guy who did the work was up near him. I suspect I'll just have to take it off some weekend and get it to Greg or directly to the shop who did the work. Once that's fixed, Rei will get it evacuated and charged again.

He also suggested putting an oil cooler in there to help keep the engine temps down during prolonged drives, putting the radiator in front of the stock air intake area.

Oh! For anyone that was going to do LeBaron brake upgrade (the one that uses S10/Caddy calipers and the 10-degree brackets), he found Wilwood ones that have bleed screws on the top and bottom, to make it versatile, instead of having to mess around with the caliper to bleed it and then installing it.

I'm sure there was other stuff he pointed out to me that I don't remember right now. My heart just sank, having the car up on a lift like that and having everything that needed to be fixed be so blatant.
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:30 pm

3/12/12
Pretty excited about my EFI swap. Got the 7730 computer, harness and MAP sensor. V8 memcal on it's way with the preliminary programming that Guru suggested. Plus I found out there's a "booster board" for the 7730 computers called the EBL P4, adds a lot of features, including being able to log and tune without having to pull and flash chips, and native Wet-kit nitrous control. This is on top of the great deal I got on all of the HSR stuff, including the TB, a Nitrous plate, jets, fuel rails, fuel pressure regulator, and dizzy.

For personal future reference:
Bottom bolt of the Alternator is 14mm
Top:
bolt - 17mm
nut - 15mm.
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:30 pm

4/7/12
Starter showed up as promised. (The starter had been dying, and finally crapped out)

With a little effort and cleaning, mounting plates were swapped easily. Cowspatoot came out today and after some testing, he wasn't comfortable with how little the bendix/gear was interfacing with the flywheel. So he took off the Archie starter bracket, and we saw it had some "overhang" from the mounting plate. Solution? Machine it down to match the mounting plate!

So I called Emc209i and asked him which machine shop had some some of the work he had done, then hit google. Found about 20 listings... and started going down the list. 9th one down, someone answered!

Tommy Cook machine shop, owned/operated by Sam New (he had taken the business over). I asked him what his hours were on Saturday:
"Well, normally noon... but you can see I'm still here!" (this was around 2:30is). So I explained what I needed done, and that it needed to be done today, if humanly possible. His answer "Come on in!"

Twenty minutes later, walked in the door. A small warehouse full of machining equipment. Sam is an older guy, with decades of experience. He showed me and Greg what he was working on, trying to get it finished today, but opted to bump it and get mine done since it was a quick job.

Thirty minutes later, back in the car with our newly machined part. Also discussed some other projects with Sam, but that will need to wait till I can get him some things and see what he thinks.

We had neglected to bring the shims along, which we should have, so they could have been machined down with the bracket (the bracket was bolted to the mounting plate). Got out the dremel and Greg went to work on that, while I stood around uselessly. This is a common thing.

Greg also discovered that two of my plug wires were deforming a bit from heat, so we got some plug wire sleeves and another plug wire holder-thing from O'reilly, and he resolved that issue. I was surprised, when I changed the plugs, I thought they had plenty of clearance, obviously I was wrong.

Once that was done, Greg got the starter in place and wired it so when I connected the battery, it would only fire the solenoid to push the bendix/gear out, but not spin the motor. This let Greg get it lined up dead on. No, we did not leave it engaged. It was a few seconds here, a few seconds there. Longest count was five seconds. After about 45 minutes of shuffling shims and adjusting things. We did the first test. A little bit of a grind. A few minutes later, perfect engagement.

This starter is INSANE. It spun my engine over faster and started quicker than it has EVER started, even when I first got the car back in 2005.

Unfortunately... I was so thrilled at the outcome, that I didn't do a few shut-down/restarts. This starter, which puts out 250 lbs/torque... jarred itself loose.

We went out to eat, get back in, and heard the grind. It was too late to work, no natural light, and it was going to take at least an hour, and it was late.

But things were fixed, progress was made!
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:31 pm

5/7/12
The starter has been in and working great. Turns out that the adapter block has about 1/8 inch of play in either direction. Sadly, the correct position is.... dead center. And as everyone can imagine, trying to tighten something down without having it shift around can be challenging.

However, Greg managed to get it done, and it has been starting like a champ ever since. Since then I've driving it on and off (AutoFair being the big one).

Today I got it out to my buddy Ted. He adjusted the timing (the best he could without it having a timing index on the crank pulley - did it the old fashioned way - vacuum gauge!) and he then adjusted the carb as well.

The engine starts even easier now. No more waiting for the carb to fuel up, even cold (well, as cold as the engine could have gotten after sitting for 2.5 hours), the engine kicked itself over within a moment. Not two-3 seconds like before with the new starter, just a moment. I thought it was going to die, but the idle hung on around 400 and quickly brought itself up to it's usual 1k without me touching the gas.

He apologized a few times, said that was the best he could get it without having a way to put a timing light to it, and I told him it was worlds better than what it was.

What annoyed him was that the left bank (or 'front' bank, as it were) still has a backfire when the throttle is punched up to over 4k and then quickly let off. Everywhere in the timing range that remained, and it was ONLY that bank. He said there was no way that was a timing issue, but it could be a carb issue, and that the bank is just getting more fuel than the other.

He said the other (less likely) possibility was that an exhaust valve was sticking just a hair, letting some fuel get into the exhaust, where the heat would ignite it. He said that was unlikely because that sort of backfire always indicates a rich condition, where a backfire through the intake indicates lean, and since it always did on that same bank through the entire timing range, it wasn't a rich/lean issue - plus again, only that one bank.
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:32 pm

5/12/12

As excited as I am to just blurt out the numbers it put down, here's the events of the day.

Woke up at a horribly early time (for me), to be at Pro-Dyno by 9am (which is when he said for us to get there). Pro Dyno does tuning as well as has a full service performance shop. We get there about 5 minutes late, and there's a fox body Mustang on the dyno already, just built and in to be tuned.

So while Dan (the owner and head tuner, and all around a nice guy) worked on that, Brian went about putting on the bigger injectors and MAF on his T-bird that was getting retuned today (awesome news on that too).

The Mustang (which was up there for nearly two hours after we got there) had a calamity, due to a wastegate malfunction, so was trailered. By this time Brian had the new injectors and MAF in.

Dan told us he had another job that was going to be real quick, then he'd focus on ours. It was a brand new Mustang with very little done, mod wise. And it was on and off there very quickly.

Dan rolls Brians T-bird on there next, which had a mild peak increase, but a fantastic overall curve increase on the rest of the band, up around 30 HP/TQ in some places.

My turn. He gets in the Fiero and starts it up, and gives me this surprised look. "It sounds like an old Corvette! What the hell do you got in here?" "You'll see."

He gets it up on the Dyno and I open the trunk. He looks around, hops down, goes to the shop side, and calls all of them over to check it out. So that was pretty cool. They hung around for the first pull.

Wideband o2 goes in, wire reader (for the RPM) goes on, he starts it up, and looks at the screen funny -- because it's showing 18.5 on the AFR. He calls out to one of the other guys. "You got that sensor in right?" "Yeah!"

He gives it a little gas, and the AFR starts to get better, he gradually speeds it up, bringing it up to around 3k, and calls out to me. "What's your redline?" "6500!" he raises his brow and gives me the 'not-bad-nod', and starts sharply accelerating, my AFR gets rich... real rich, real fast.

Second pull, he only goes up to 4th gear.

Third pull, still only goes up to 4th, but gets on it harder. Shuts it down, gets out and says "We normally only put up the cars we tune on Facebook, but this thing is going on there!" he looks at one of his employees "Get this on there, call it Monster Fiero or something like that."

So the employee takes a few pictures and goes about doing that. Dan looks at me.

"Your primary jets are too lean, your secondaries are WAY too rich. I could feel it bogging down when they kicked in." and he shows me the AFR fuel line thingie, and explains more of it to me, and ends with "So get the jetting on the primary brought up a little, and on the secondary brought down a little." "How much more power will that get me? Like 3 or 4?" Dan shook his head. "Try 10 or 20." "Seriously?" "Seriously. Get it done."

So now that you know that my car impressed a guy who builds and tunes performance cars all day long, and knowing that there's more power to be had... the numbers! Dun Dun DUNNNN:

371 HP at a little over 6k, and 381 Torque at right on 4.75k.

Already called Scott and left him a voicemail to see about getting the jetting changed on the carb, and then going to go back.

Besides that awesome news, I"m even more excited about the fact that Scott told me once I get the fuel injection done, my curve will likely be much better, and I'll probably make better peak power. So I'm really glad I'm getting this carb dynos done so I have some before and afters.

The dynograph I have is printed on some glossy paper, but I don't think it'll cause any issues with scanning, going to try to get that done now and I'll get it up.

Edit: Here's the dyno sheet! I rotated it in Webshots, so the quality dropped some, but it's still readable. I can always turn on my PC with a real photo program and re-upload it if anyone thinks it's necessary.

Image

My roommate had taken some video of the car on the Dyno, here are the two videos he shot. He was already hit up by a well-known Fiero Troll, one of the more active members over on RFT - I'm sure that's all I need to say for everyone here to know exactly who I'm talking about. lol Here's the video links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn14-N7lT64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sntUSz-86b8
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:32 pm

5/14/12
I talked to Scott this morning. He told me to get the carb calibration kit for my carb, and he's going to see what he can work out with Dan to use the dyno and play with the carb there, instead of tweaking the carb at Scotts shop, hoping we got it right, and driving to the dyno to find out, then rinse and repeat.

After telling Scott the A/F ratio numbers, he thinks it'll pick up even more than than the 10-20 that Dan predicted. Trying not to get my hopes up too high, but that'd be sweet to have it over 400 on the HP/Torque.

This might also fix that odd-intermittent backfire issue on the one bank... though still odd it'd only do it on one bank if it was carb related. At least seems odd to me. I think I got a little valve float going on.
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Belts are the bane of my setup

Postby Trinten » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:25 pm

So one drawback to my setup is that I'm using a single "accessory" belt, or V-belt - compared to the serpentine setup. The Archie kit also does not have a loaded idler pulley to help ensure good tension on the belt as it loosens up a bit.

I had spoke to both a Dayco and Gates rep some months ago, getting a list of belts that might be optimal for my needs, and for the most part, they've been great.

A drawback is after having one on for about 100 miles, I do need to get back under and tighten it up. The bigger drawback is that when it starts getting wet... it starts squealing. And more often than not, especially if it's a long enough drive, the belt will snap.

Those are the times I'm grateful for my electric water pump and a Optima battery!

I think I might see if Guru can come up with any kind of 'shield' to put under there to help cut down on the exposure to water, but I looked last time I was under there, and didn't see a way to do it that wouldn't require welding in some mounting points, probably to the cradle, for the shield to anchor to - which would be fine since the engine is solid-mounted. I just don't have any welding equipment.

With luck though, he'll come up with some amazing fix for it, or just say "screw it, we're switching to serpentine" (an endeavor it seems he's done on other swaps, and is rather time consuming and requires a fair amount of effort to modify things).

And of course, with my Daily driver down today for some regular maintenance, I drove the Fiero... and it rained.... and "sang" most of the way home. Thankfully the rain stopped and the belt apparently dried up enough to where it stopped singing about 5 minutes from home, and didn't pop off.
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:07 pm

I now have my Ultra Pro Magnum rockers and new AFR springs. Going to send them both out to be cryo-treated. Scott said he should hopefully be caught up in the shop in early July, so if that's the case, then we'll be able to get the carb calibrated and see what we can squeeze out of it, and he's going to pop off the "Rear" valve cover and check my valvetrain geometry to see if I'll need new pushrods as well to go with the 1.6 rockers.
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby ncfierokid » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:05 pm

where did you get your headlights from?
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:26 pm

The headlight buckets I bought from Fiero1Fan (PFF) - I understand there's a new generation of them out there that are much "cleaner", too. If I remember, the buckets were around 200 bucks at the time I got them.

The wiring harness was from Synthesis (again, PFF), his "level 2" harness (which requires the battery to be relocated to the front, as it pulls power right from there, instead of drawing more juice through our 20+ year old wiring). I don't know if he's making them anymore or not. That was around 110.

The headlights themselves I had ordered from someplace... I think it was http://www.rallylights.com/. They were the cheapest that anyone had found at the time, Hella 90mm lamps, I think for all four it ran me around 300 bucks. (the high beams are more expensive than the low beams, obviously)

Doing a quick search, I found a guy who is selling the complete setup, buckets, lights, and harness for 550 - which is about on par if you bought everything separately.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/060014.html

you could also check with the guys in this thread, see where they bought theirs: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/060014.html
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:49 pm

Well, got the okay from the owner at Pro Dyno to be able to meet there with Scott sometime, so Scott can re-jet and re-tune my carb with the Dyno to make sure it's dead on.

Scott wanted to do it tomorrow, but the owner is going to "Mustang Week", so not possible. In late August I'll be heading up to West Virginia for a mostly-Ford meet (knowing one of the mods and being on good terms on their boards from when I had a Thunderbird, they said it was cool to bring the Fiero). So I'll have some track times, and you guys can all see how lousy I am at launching and shifting quickly -- maybe I'll invest in the Rodney Dickman short-shifter.

Really hoping that between when I get back from Chicago, and when that event is, that we'll be able to get the carb fixed and I'll have an updated dyno sheet. Either way, I'll have some track numbers for you guys in about 6 weeks.
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:00 pm

Ordered my Bosch III injectors from Southbay Fuel Injectors today (found them via thirdgen.org). Really nice people. Their remanf. injectors are very cheap, they clean, rebuild, and flow test them in shop. 180 vs. 360 for a set of 8. I asked them why they were so inexpensive, and Frank said "Well, they look really ugly, these mostly come from Volvos*, and they get pretty warm underhood temps, so the housing on the injectors is discolored. No impact on how they function, and they have a 3 year warranty."

Well, I couldn't car how they look, as long as they worked properly, and with the warranty, I wasn't going to pass up that kind of savings. So injectors ordered!

There's still a few odds and ends left I need to get (that I had forgotten), thankfully Guru is still working on his build, so he's not ready for my car yet.

Also this Saturday, Scott is meeting me at the dyno to rejet/retune my carb. So we'll see how much more we can squeeze out of it! I'll have another dynosheet up sometime on Saturday. And then I'll have another once the EFI is done.
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:56 pm

Alright! Got to Pro Dyno about fifteen minutes early, Scott was running about 15 minutes behind. Dan pulled the Fiero up onto the dyno and got it all setup. All in all, we did about 3 "cruise runs" (going at a normal acceleration to 70 mph to watch A/F) and 6 pulls.

Air temp was about the same as it was last time I was there, but the humidity was double!

When Scott showed up, he had Dan run a pull first to get a baseline. I was shocked to see how much of a difference humidity can make - down 14 HP and Torque!

Image

From here on out, Scott changed the springs, metering rods, adjusted the idle, and played with timing. After the A/F was pretty much nailed down he tried adjusting the timing, first pushing it up two degrees, then back two, to see if it liked it any better. The "blue line" pull in the upcoming scan is from the advanced timing - I wonder if the dip and odd behavior of the car is when the belt popped off.

That's right, the belt popped off. Thankfully didn't snap. Just popped off. Dan didn't notice it because he's staring out the driving side window watching the computer monitors during the run. We didn't notice till he backed the car off and we saw the belt laying there. So Scott was wondering if it would have done better with that little bit more timing (or just in general), since it would have full juice coming from the alternator to the ignition system, and not just from the battery. Despite this, the engine made a horsepower more and the same amount of torque - in other words, we picked up 15 HP and 14 torque from the baseline.

Regardless, he set the timing back to where it was to start with, and we did a final pull, from "the blue pull" as a guide I lost 10 HP and 7 torque, but no oddities with the engine.

Image

I debated on asking Dan to put it back on there when I got the belt back on (he was nice enough to loan me a floor jack, stand, wrench, and pry bar), so Scott could bump the timing again, but he was already occupied with something in the build-side of his shop when I was finished.

Regardless, after Scott was done, it was back near what it put down under better conditions, and Dan agreed - "You put it up here at 70 degrees and 19% humidity, it'll be a huge difference."

So picked up roughly 10 HP and 10 ft/lbs torque, and might have better mileage now that the A/F is fixed. Along with the possibility of another 5 HP/TQ lurking in the timing. I doubt I'll have a chance to put it on a dyno again before the EFI, but if I do, I'll bump the timing and see what it does.

If those gains translate directly (which I don't know if it works that way), that puts my car at around 381 HP and 391 ft/lbs torque in 28% humidity (versus the 48%-56% today).

Now just to wait and see how my gas mileage does, how it does at the track in a few weeks, and what it puts down once the EFI is on there!
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:16 am

So at the track I busted a tripod. Thankfully it didn't come loose and bust anything else.

Apparently the tripods from the passenger side of Corsicas (and other cars) will fit onto the driver side Fiero axle. They might also go on the passenger side Fireo axle without too much trouble, but the guy who figured out the swap told me in a PM he couldn't remember the details. Here's the link:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Arch ... 87386.html

So I asked CP if he wouldn't mind trying to get these tripods on my axles. Though we're both busy (he's getting things ready for RFTH, I'm going on another vacation), so not sure when he might be able to fit it in. So for the moment, the car sits.
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axles and a terrible thought

Postby Trinten » Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:45 am

So CP is working on trying to build some beefed up axles, but after reading a PFF thread recently, and remember something another friend went through on his car, I had a worrisome thought.

A few years back, my buddy had busted his input shaft. He didn't realize what was broke at first, just that he'd rev the engine up and it'd slolwly start to accelerate.

The PFF thread was on a swap, and had the same concern, that there wasn't going to be enough engagement on the input shaft for longevity.

When I busted the axle/tripod, since it hadn't ripped apart and hobbled from the track back to parking, we first debated on driving it back to the hotel. This was abandoned because as I tried to pull away, at the first sign of incline, the car stopped moving, though the RPMs were climbing, and the speedometer was bouncing.

Now the bouncing could have just been from the Dakota Digital being a little flakey, which at times it does, especially at low speeds (thankfully not often).

But with the LSD, I had figured (maybe wrongly) that it would shift power to the good axle, and I'd roll with that. CP had said that depending on how my LSD worked, it wouldn't have, the LSD would have assumed the car was 'turning' due to the axle issue, and not lock the other side, unlike a full locker, which is near-equal to both sides all the time.

I really hope that's the case, and this isn't a matter of input shaft being busted. It's not mentioned in the F23 tutorial, so not sure if Paul had checked engagement.

If it is busted... that's gonna suck.

If that does turn out to be the case, makes me wonder if I should take Jncomutt's lead and switch to an automatic as well - definitely get better track numbers, since I'm obviously pretty lousy at managing the car on the track. lol

a few people that looked at all my slips (I only posted my last four runs, the one after my best run is when I busted the axle) and my dyno sheet and asking me a bunch of other questions say that if I got a handle on shifting properly/fast enough, I should be in the high 11s/low 12s; faster still with the right auto (gear ratios and such).

A friend of CPs suggested starting to launch from 2nd gear at around 4k RPM. I asked Jncomutt if he'd ever done that, and he said he didn't have much luck with it because of his turbos not being fully spooled, but one of his more common burnout videos was in 2nd gear. He also pointed out that he didn't have the torque at that level that mine does, so he isn't sure how well things would hold up.

So comes back to the question of -- how hard do I want to push this transmission? (assuming I didn't break it).

Anyhow, just some early morning thoughts that have been bouncing around my head for the past few weeks. Now just to play the wait and see game with the axles.
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Drew-py » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:47 pm

check and see what your axle deflection angle is with vehicle at rest, running up hill toward the tire from tranny is negative deflection (this is bad, and what I have which caused my tri-pod failure) your added weight of the V-8 may be a factor. Just some of my random thoughts in case you haven't looked into this yet. I lowered mine 7/8" giving me a negative deflection while at rest
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Trinten » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:56 pm

Okay, so negative deflection is bad, but you lowered yours which caused your negative deflection - I'm guessing that was prior to your tripod busting? Did you lift things back up?

The car is still sitting. Waiting on CP, though the deadline for getting it done is coming up here soon. He had run into a problem getting the donor tripods off the new-not-for-fiero axles. He took a line-hammer to them, but still didn't get them to budge. So we were under the impression they were made to be "non-serviceable". FieroGuru said they will pop apart, just need to hit it harder. So I passed that along to him, haven't heard anything back yet.

Failing the axle build, I'll probably just drop a set of stock ones in there for now. I don't plan on beating on it again until the next round of upgrades is done, anyway.
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Chug » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:22 am

you'll need to remember that these axles are strongest when they are straight. What that means is that you are going to want some positive deflection while the car is at rest so that when you launch and the weight transfer (squat) happens that your axles become straight as possible. Putting some kind of suspension limiter in might help the squat. I've never seen a lowered car do well at the racetrack, unless the suspension has been completely redesigned. Just a little food for thought.
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Re: Trinten's "MMTS" build

Postby Drew-py » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:36 am

yes negative deflection is very bad. mine was lowered increasing my negative deflection before the squat of the launch which has broken the driver side axle X2. your extra V-8 weight is likely giving you negative at rest( the V-8 adds almost 200lbs). Prior to lowering I launched the heck out of the car many many times both at track and street with no failures, then after lowering her the first trip to the track snap kinda sounded like a grenade going off. The increased angle puts the tri-pod/tri-pot joint in to much of a bind soooo snap happens
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